Red Digital Cinema recently dropped all specs on its Scarlet and Epic product range as Nikon and Canon bring out cameras of equivalent performance (Ie Canon 5D MkII). A month later they announce a totally re-vamped vision with what one would consider to be “the dream vision” of film making equipment. The question here is. Can they deliver on this?
To gudge this, lets look at the track record. The RED1.
From talking to people from the prosumer and professional areas, I get two different perspectives. The Prosumer, wanting the big toys for no money pant RED as the coming of the messiah. The Pros, who have been using Viper and other uncompressed hi-end systems consider RED a bit of a Joke, but do respect how quickly they have developed an impressive camera. Still, it has quite a number of problems.
The Pros have some major issues.
1. It over heats under heavy use. The running joke with the hire companies is it may be cheaper to rent then a uncompressed system, but you need two on set to make sure you have no down time. Tho I do hear the later revisions have improved this problem greatly.
2. The colour depth of REDCODE codec is good but uncompressed is better.
3. Its NOT 4K. Its a good 2K camera. It uses a bayer filter. This is not a true pixel for pixel sample. So please…. stop calling it a 4k camera… Please goto wikipedia for an explanation.
4. Until recently you could not work natively on redcode-codec files adding a complex addition to the workflow. I have heard of quite a few major productions having to do neg match to media files as meta data errors and other problems have been occurring on the workflow.
5. Red has not delivered on a number of promised features. Number of audio track supported. Support for 4:2:2/4:4:4 single/duel HDSDI out put. These are major issues to the Pro.
The key to the RED is the sensor. Who makes the sensor then.. Well that’s a secret. This is what makes me most nervious of all.
Let me go over some Sensor history. Many of you may be wondering how RED was able to jump so far ahead in Sensor technology. Well, this is because it is already a very old and mature industry. In my career, I have worked for Kodak on the Cineon Project, the first of its kind to bring film into the digital age. I have been involved in the engineering of a film recorder. We also planned to make a film scanner, but it’s a bit late for that now. During this time we went over engineering products suitable for building these tools. From hi-resolution sensors to line arrays. Strangely enough these components have been around for quite some time. There reason for existence. Robotic eyes.
Very hi-resolution sensors exist, for example to detect imperfections in CHIP manufacture. These sensors are easily re-purposed into what the RED1 became. The biggest problem to overcome was that the sensors did not have a data path capable of bringing images of at the speed required for film. This is the main redesign needed to archive what RED did with RED1.
Sony and other manufactures where starting from scratch as they consider bayer filters as a non-professional way to capture 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 images. For example, why we have 3 chip cameras, sampling the full colour for every pixel in the sensor.
RED1 4k bayer equates to a little better then 2k at 4:4:4. So really the RED1 is an amazing 2k camera. Please don’t call it a 4K camera. Maybe a “4k-bayer”.
This explains how RED had a perceived jump on the incumbents. It was not so much a jump as looking at the problem from outside the square.
So really, RED has aligned itself with one of these sensor makers and focused them on making sensors which are more suitable for film acquisition.
The real question here is. Can RED get this secret company who specialise in sensor development to make sensors to the specifications announced in the recent dream fest?
My personal opinion is that what they have put on paper is possible. But the time frame arguable. And now canon and Sony may start playing with the same rules. RED may have some real competition.
Consider this. If Canon/Sony, with its years of engineering know how, brings out a camera even close to the RED products. Who are you likely to purchase. RED who are learning as they go along, or Canon/Sony, who really know about building pro kit?
This is simply a reality check for those wraped up in the RED hype. If the RED1 does it for you great. Canon looks like having kit coming to market soon that will be equivalent in some ways to RED1 and better then the original promis of scarlet.. RED has promised us some vapourware we may see in the future. But really. If I cannot touch it, its not worth my or your time. If your in production, its what you can do today, not what you may be able to do in the future. Focus on what can be done and your more likely to actually get a prodcution finished.
12 responses so far ↓
1 Philip Hodgetts // Nov 26, 2008 at 2:21 am
Couple of comments. Tests show a true resolution of about 2.7K for Red 1’s 4K sensor. It’s is a 4K sensor but resolves 2K. That’s typical – no 2K camera resolves 2K with a 2K sensor etc, even with 3 CCD or CMOS and no Bayer. You need 2 pixels for resolving anything, and that applies to every camera in the world.
There is a lot of work being done with RED One, by professionals (two upcoming US TV series for example, lots of commercials, many movies).
Canon’s D5 MkII is not a digital cinema camera – ask anyone from Canon. To get the various divisions together at a company like that will take 5 years. In the meantime RED will have iterated 3 times (and hyped 5 cameras
Last night Jannard posted that they have made major changes to what they announced last week. Time to stop changing and start building.
Philip
2 Carlo // Nov 26, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Right, you have a lot of flaws in your argument.. Lets go over them
1. It over heats under heavy use. The running joke with the hire companies is it may be cheaper to rent then a uncompressed system, but you need two on set to make sure you have no down time. Tho I do hear the later revisions have improved this problem greatly.
– This was fixed in build 6 i believe, they are now up to build 18… Why do people focus on the disadvantages of a new startup? they listened to their customers and fixed it!
2. The colour depth of REDCODE codec is good but uncompressed is better.
- The image is stored as RAW REDCODE, pure data, The only difference is that it hasnt had the bayering process applied to it yet. they wait till after its on the computer to do that. gives alot of flexibility to the image
3. Its NOT 4K. Its a good 2K camera. It uses a bayer filter. This is not a true pixel for pixel sample. So please…. stop calling it a 4k camera… Please goto wikipedia for an explanation.
I believe its actually 3.2K. Get your facts right
4. Until recently you could not work natively on redcode-codec files adding a complex addition to the workflow. I have heard of quite a few major productions having to do neg match to media files as meta data errors and other problems have been occurring on the workflow.
This is not a problem with the camera but a problem with lack of technical people on the production.
5. Red has not delivered on a number of promised features. Number of audio track supported. Support for 4:2:2/4:4:4 single/duel HDSDI out put. These are major issues to the Pro.
This is a weird one… number of audio tracks is 4 inputs at 24bit. Thats been supported for a while now. Not sure about the hdsdi, but i believe its working aswell.
you mention about the Canon’s D5 MkII being the competitor to the new cameras they announced… Did you actually read their announcement or just assume that it was 1080p like teh canon’s camera? Lets go over the main points – Configure your own camera (choose what parts you want where), New Sensors from 3k up to 28k (I believe 28k is equivilent to around 260 megapixel…. kinda larger then 20 megapixel that the canon is, how is this a competitor??), new more precise lenses, that their data gets stored directly into the metadata of the file, and a 3d rig. Name a competitor in teh 3d rig market apart from 3rd party people!
3 JamieG // Nov 26, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Hi Carlo,
1. From my understanding, they altered the firmware to improve the thermal issues related to the design. But ultimately, it is a hardware issue. The problem still exists to some degree. Maybe RED altered the design in later versions. Still, I do get the impression from the hire companies that RED cameras are still known to “go down” more often then pro kit should. It is a Version 1. I expect better on the next units, Scarlet/Epic.
2. Leaving it in bayer makes the files smaller. Even still, it must be a compressed form of bayer as that would need more bandwidth what I understand to be the bitrate. Leaving it in bayer has some fractional advantages I imagine, but I have not really had time to bring it into an online edit quite to play with. When my partner was at Park Road Post, talking to the post guys behind the Peter Jackson film. There biggest issues was the lack of colour depth compared to what they are use to with uncompressed 10bit.
3. If your not doing 4 K, your doing 2K. So, as the RED is not a real 4K camera, its only really as good as any 2k camera, as that is what you will ultimately work in. It does give you some room for cropping the 4K to a 2K result. But thats about all the advantage you really have.
4. any addition to complexity, even for trained staff, also introducers more possibilities for things to go wrong. Law of averages.
5. Philip, (Who would know) maintained above an audio issue.. And I have not heard and cannot see the once HDSDI option listed on the site for available accessories. I would be happy if you could point out where it says this option IS available. From my understanding it can output preview of HDSDI 4:2:2 most likely 10bit (Single link). But duel link 1080/2K 4:4:4 10/12 bit has never been supplied as quoted in the original promise.
Finally, the 5D MkII, is as it stands, a better camera compared to the original and new low cost scarlet. (3k bayer sensor compared to a 22mega pixel interpolated down to 1080). Canon is a better result and cheaper as a complete package. So it may not have the vaporware accessory factor but it is a current product and not 1 year away (prototype). The codec in the RED is likely to be superior to what the 5D can currently offer.
The 3D rig RED has shown is not new. I have seen prototypes exactly like it based on sensors from general sensor makers. And that would have been 3-5 years ago. I’m sorry mate, but please come down to earth. There is also a lot of other issues in making 3D cameras that the RED rig does not even cater for in its prototype..
James
4 Stan Wingson // Nov 27, 2008 at 1:43 am
I’d take this blog post with a massive grain of salt. It’s obvious James has very little- if any actual first-hand experience with the camera. Instead he’s chosen to listen to a vocal but increasingly minor group of luddites in the industry who continue to cry ’scam’ about the RED.
James, if you understood just how many tv shows, movies, commercials, music videos and other projects have already been shot and continue to be shot with RED cameras your head would probably explode. Guys like you are welcome to continue flinging your shoes into the printing press trying to stop it’s dangerous magic. The rest of us will just keep turning the page though…
5 JamieG // Nov 27, 2008 at 8:25 am
Stan,
Yes I am not a camera person, I am a post production TECH person. I work with people who deal with the files from the RED and the problems of trying to make it work, as in to archive the final desired result. These epeople have been working with uncompressed and very reliable workflows based on mega expensive kit.
The price of the kit, to them, is not an issue. not something that effects them. It is the files and the workflow that effects them. The fact is, the RED workflow does work, but as a pro, it is not as ideal as some work flows based on the expensive kit..
I am sorry you consider me ignorant to point this out.
The RED, for what it is, band for buck, leads the industry. It explains why it is selling so well and is being used on countless productions.
But like anything, it has its issues. As a Pro, you should understand the strengths and weaknesses of your tools as to be able to utilise them as best they can.
James
6 Hans // Dec 13, 2008 at 7:47 pm
James, I know for a fact that some recent films shot in Australia on RED had ‘issues’. It was not once the fault of the camera (build 16 at the time) but the lack of experience of the tech crew that caused issues on set and later in post.
Until you actually go out and use the thing in real world situations instead of just relaying stories you’ve heard you’re argument is as useful as that film scanner you were going to build.
Bear in mind that no one is doing what RED are attempting. It’s early days for what looks like a revolution in affordability and insane resolution options. If you don’t like it, fine…. but stop bitching about something you have limited or second hand knowledge of. It’s just poor form.
7 Howard // Dec 22, 2008 at 11:06 am
The RED CAMERA is 2:5K when shooting in
1.78:1 but only 1:8K when shooting scope.
I don’t care what the director thinks but the
CHE epic is 1:8K NOT 4K as implied !!
The industry has become a Kool-Aid drinking cult !
What they call 2K is in fact 1K what they call
4K DI is in fact 2K.
They even refer to Blu-Ray as 2K !!
We all know BD is 1080 that is only 80 lines
about 1K.
Now if you loaned $2000 to a friend and then
they came to repay you with $1080 telling you
that 80 bucks above one grand is the same as two grand would you buy that ??
But that is the logic of the K rez cult !!
The terms I now use are
scientific / Hype
so I would describe so-called 2K Digital Intermediate as
1K scientific/2K Hype
http://www.howardsimonmarks.com
8 Jason Sinclair // Jan 14, 2009 at 1:50 pm
You have two angles that confuse each other.
Red is the best production ready camera available now for its budget range. This includes usability, modularity and quality. You can argue all the final details you want but no Sony, Canon or whatever comes even close. It would be good if these other companies could use their technical expertise and advanced knowledge centers to produce better cameras. In fact the competition is well welcomed. Unfortunately these large companies are still interested in the lazy way of limiting the market. Meanwhile red Cam co. keep inovating.
We heard all the nervous nellies such as yourself say that the red wasn’t achievable but Red went ahaed and created a first gen system that blows everything out of the water in its budget range.
Now, We are looking at second gen; the epic and scarlet. Red will improve 10 fold and their roadmap shows amazing progress.
I hate the cult following of Red as well but cannot doubt this camera system is brilliant.
At thee end of the day, the public want an image and pay a certain price which the producer has to engage with which in turn runs the industry.
So I for one am glad there are a lot on this industry who are not following this trend because they are slowly being weeded through economic forces and that leaves opening for those of us that are progressive.
Secondly,
9 JamieG // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Hello Jason,
I never said it was a BAD camera. It is an amazing camera. I am just trying to make a point that, with all this noise and hype, people seem to forget that the camera is a very small part of the over all end-game of making content. 2K is it for DCI cinema, and will be for some time. The current RED is all you really need in terms of quality.
I am also trying to point out that Canon/Nikon will be making cameras in the very near future that wil compete. People should be open minded. We don;t all need a Ferrari to go down the street to get a bottle of milk.
The RED1 is not a 4K camera in a Film 4K sense. I do think that Epic in the larger 6k (bayer) sensor is needed for a 4K result. I am just not convinced we need 4K results.
Technology for technology sake, always leads to tears.
James
10 F. Ray Murmon // Mar 17, 2009 at 9:11 pm
“Technology for technology sake, always leads to tears.”
True.
11 Nick Narciso // Mar 25, 2009 at 8:03 am
One word: CULT.
I refuse to even THINK of ever shooting in ‘Red’ if ever given the opportunity. I also refuse to ever kiss Jim Jannard’s asshole like the Red Followers’ do in the forums..
Get real.
12 Inopportune // Jun 21, 2009 at 1:28 am
Let me tell you that they boast great prices, but when you try to talk to anybody at the company, they are the most arrogant people I have ever talked to. I have the Red One camera, and they severely messed something up and all the wanted to do was just replace the issue and not even reimburse in any other way — they sold me a used piece as being new, this is ILLEGAL. They threatened legal action against me when I called them to try to find out why one of my Red parts had been used when they sold it to me as being new. Great products, terrible people working for the company…
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